DishyMix: Susan Bratton Podcasts & Blogs Famous Executives

A Persuasively Karmic Marketer, Joe Vitale

In this DishyMix interview with Joe Vitale, famous Internet marketer and author, I ask Joe how he’d teach a master’s program at Stanford on Persuasion Marketing.

Then find out what Joe’s really INTO right now at a personal level – where his evolution is unfolding.

Both answers are fascinating, as befitting a legend like Joe.

Susan Bratton: All right, thank you for that. I’m going to switch gears for you. I want you to imagine yourself teaching at Stanford. You’ve been brought in to the, you know, the Masters Program, the Business MBA Group and you’re teaching a 101 class on how to become a persuasive and influential marketer. The focus of this is primarily in the writing, in the copywriting, in the connecting, in the empathy, and you want to give – this is day one of the class – and you want to give everybody who’s attending an overview of how a framework or a model or a construct that they can then throw themselves into the world of persuasion and influence and copywriting and understand who the players are and how you, Joe Vitale, look at the masters of persuasion, influence, empathy and motion triggers, psychology, whatever it might be. How would you lay that all out to them in the really big hundred thousand foot perspective?

Joe Vitale: I absolutely love that question.

Susan Bratton: You know what I like? I like it when you say that to me.

Joe Vitale: You are speaking my language. I love writing and I love persuasion, and I was primarily a copywriter before I ever ended up doing Internet marketing and appearing in movies and all this other stuff. So I love the question. The first thing I’d do is give everybody a copy of my book Hypnotic Writing, which was my very first e-book and it was the one Mark Joyner actually released to the world and helped me taste the power of the Internet through e-books. And then I would go and break it down and say, “Look, people are only interested in themselves. So I say that you have to get out of your ego and you have to get into their ego.” That is my mantra, “Get out of your ego, get into their ego.” What does that mean? Find out what’s on their mind right now. What are they reading, what are they listening, what are their problems, and address it. Meet them where they already are thinking. Meet them in their mindset. Don’t come out with a new mindset or try to clash with their mindset or change their mindset unless you first build the repertoire to let you know that you understand them.

The second think I would say is people thing in terms of stories. Instead of writing anything factual or all technical I would say I would tell a story, and it might be somebody who used a product or service like yours or maybe it was resistant to using a product or service like yours and then they ended up using it, the life change that took place, all of that. We are story beings. We don’t talk to each other in terms of facts and figures unless we put them into the framework of a story. We also don’t remember anything unless it’s in a story format.

So I would say the next thing is to think in terms of stories. The third thing I would think of is think in terms of dialogue. Whenever you can use dialogue in sales copy persuasion, written communication, you bring the writing to life. Whenever you pick up a book and you see quotation marks and a lot of little broken paragraphs and so forth, it looks inviting. It looks like you’re about to read a novel or a mystery or a riveting piece of fiction. Not enough people in persuasion or in copywriting or in writing websites or email use things like that.

The next thing I would tell them is to be visual. Get people to see photos, pictures in their mind. We think in terms of images. Even when we tell a story, it’s almost like a storyboard that’s moving around in our brain. You can direct how people think by how you select the images that you put in their brain. The next thing I would remind them is that as a copywriter or as a persuasionist you are the script writer for their dreams, meaning paint the pictures — that vision again, and these are images again, and it’s also speaking to what they want – paint the future of the end result these people will have when they buy your product or service. You’re the scriptwriter. Pain it better than they would even paint it. Let me see the visual in their own mind by how you describe it in your copy.

And then I think finally I would remind people of whatever the pain would be if they didn’t take any action. Life’s going to pretty much remain the same if you don’t do something different right now. What you can do different right now is whatever this product or service is and as a reminder to buy. And my goodness, I could probably speak for the next few days on copywriting and persuasion, but right off the top of my head being thrown that question, that’s what I would say to that university group.

Susan Bratton: Thank you. See how I put you in the room with my visuals?

Joe Vitale: I was there. I was right there in the room. I saw it. You did well.

Susan Bratton: Well one of the things that I always like to do is use as much picture-based language in my podcast as I can because I know so many people are visual learners. So going back to this idea of understanding the whole world of persuasion and influence, that’s what you would do. You would teach these steps and you would tell us about hypnotic writing. Who else would you study? Who do you think are the greats and in what order might you study them? And do you think about persuasion and influence and copywriting in any kind of an organized way or are there different clusters in your mind? You know, how do you map, how do you map that world, download your map to us as we’re your students?

Joe Vitale: I have put myself through one of the most intense self-study programs anyone has ever been through.

Susan Bratton: That’s why I’m asking you.

Joe Vitale: I did it by studying some of the greatest authors. I would tell everybody listening to find a copy of the Robert Collier Letter Book. I tell people before the Robert Collier Letter Book I was a copywriter. After the Robert Collier Letter Book I was the hypnotic copywriter. That book transformed me from being an okay or so-so or whatever you want to call it writer, to being somebody who could really hold attention with words. Robert Collier was a direct response writer. His book came out a few days before he died in 1950. His family still reprints the book. You can find it online probably at Amazon. It’s called the Robert Collier Letter Book. Definitely read that. I’m also a disciple of John Caples. John Caples was one of the early copywriters. One of the most famous ads in history is from 1925 that said, “They laughed when I sat down at the piano, but when I started to play…” John Caples wrote that in 1925. People have been duplicating that or have been inspired by that in different ways ever since. He wrote a lot of books, most of which are still in print, but the one in particular that I would say you must have is called Making Ads Pay, Making Ads Pay by John Caples, c-a-p-l-e-s.

Then there’s a whole long line of other ones, but the last one I’ll mention is David Ogilvy. Many people still know his name. He was a living legend as a copywriter and he also had David Ogilvy as the company. He wrote a book called Confessions of an Advertising Man. He never thought it would become a bestseller, but it did become a New York Times bestseller, and I believe it’s still in print. Confessions of an Advertising Man by David Ogilvy. And don’t of course to read Joe Vitale’s books.

Susan Bratton: Absolutely. There’s so many of them. I just want to read the name of a few of your books for our listeners who might not know how many you’ve written, mostly because I want them to get the flavor for who you are. You’re really I think at the intersection of esoterics and marketing in many ways, and I think that comes from your love of understanding how we as humans both achieve our potential and how we can do it using whatever you want to call it, the laws of the universe, whatever, you know.

You like the law of attraction, whatever it might be. So you’ve written everything from Hypnotic Marketing and Buying Trances and There’s A Customer Born Every Minute, Inspired Marketing, Your Internet Cash Machine, to The Keys, Euro Limits, you’re in the movie The Secret. Everything from Life’s Missing Instruction Manual and Expect Miracles and Adventure Within. So you’ve really done a lot of personal growth, personal empowerment. You’ve also done a lot of marketing books. And you tend to merge those two things into your mind because you’re really talking about and studying the human condition for potential. That’s what it seems like to me.

Joe Vitale: And that’s what it is. I’m basically writing about what I love. I am a spiritual marketer. I am one of the few who has a foot in both worlds, so I do talk about spirituality and self-help and inspiration, law of attraction, The Secret. But then on the other side I talk about persuasion, hypnotic writing, buying trances, I’m a disciple of P.T. Barnum. I wrote the only business book on him, the one you mentioned, There’s A Customer Born Every Minute. And I’m living both of those. I’m balancing both of those in my life, and to my amazement the world loves both. In fact, they seem to love the spirituality a bit more than the marketing, but they take both in, which is gratifying to me as the author since I’m writing in both categories.

Susan Bratton: You’ve also lent your brand to a number of peoples other strategies to help them open their market. An example would be Nick Ortner’s Tapping Solution or I think you just helped – I forget his name, you’ll have to say – the quantum-leaping guy, the Hono Pono…

Joe Vitale: Oh Holo Pono Pono.

Susan Bratton: Holo Pono Pono.

Joe Vitale: Yeah, right. Right, right.

Susan Bratton: You do that a lot through your masterminds and your circles of influence that you work with. What are some of the things that you’ve been most taken with recently with regard to that kind of category of – I don’t even know what you call it – like transpersonal concepts or something?

Joe Vitale: Yeah.

Susan Bratton: What are you into right now your self personally? Not just the stuff you’ve been helping other people get out of the market, but what do you like?

Joe Vitale: What a wonderful question. Holo Pono Pono, which is the Hawaiian healing system, I wrote about in the book Zero Limits. I absolutely love that. I’ve done three seminars based on it, and just a weekend ago I joined a quantum psychologist and he and I did quantum Holo Pono Pono together. We were both using two different avenues to get to the same place. He was coming from science; I was coming from mysticism, yet we were going to the source of life and calling it quantum Holo Pono Pono. I’m still fascinated by all of that. My book Zero Limits is probably the most controversial yet popular best selling book I’ve written to date.

I’ve got a whole group of people who read it and go “This is crazy” and another whole group of people who read it and go “It’s changed my life forever.” And I personally am using it everyday. I just recorded another audio. I’m going to make a meditation based on Hono Pono Pono. So I’m into personal growth and personal discovery and seeing how I can grow and expand and reach for more and achieve more and inspire more and help more people. And right now Holo Pono Pono is on the leading edge, as confusing as it is to a lot of people it’s still incredibly inspiring to many others including me.

Susan Bratton: What is it?

Joe Vitale: So…

Susan Bratton: What is it Joe?

Joe Vitale: Well I wrote a whole book to explain this, but hope…

Susan Bratton: I’m sorry I didn’t read it. You’re going to have to Cliff it for us baby.

Joe Vitale: No problem. Well the first thing I’ll say is there’s a website,, which has a lot of free information about it. This is a way of clearing your unconscious mind of the beliefs and limitations, what we call programming, that has been there from birth, and even in the Hawaiian culture they even believe you might’ve reincarnated and brought it in as well. And this is a very simple process of saying four phrases within yourself to help dissolve these, and I’ll even tell you what the four phrases are. Its “I love you,” “I’m sorry,” “Please forgive me,” and “Thank you.” “I love you,” “I’m sorry,” “Please forgive me,” and “Thank you.” You’re saying these phrases to whatever the issues or beliefs or problems are that you’re perceiving in the outer world.

At heart in Holo Pono Pono everything is a problem of perception. It isn’t what’s going on outside that’s the real issue, it’s your view of what’s going on and your view is within your grasp. It’s inside of you. It’s stemming from your unconscious mind and all the programs that are hidden there. And a lot of therapy and a lot of different movements try to get into the unconscious mind, and they do to various degrees, but because this is the database that drives your life, we really have to clean it up. Holo Pono Pono seems to be the simplest easiest cost effective free thing you can do once you learn how to do it. I’m doing it all the time. It’s the background tape in my mind even now as I talk to you and I talk to your listeners. So Holo Pono Pono, I mean that’s very brief. That’s quite an overview, but it’s very powerful and very easy.

Susan Bratton: Yeah, it seems like if Buddha and Pai Lai had a baby they’d make Holo Pono Pono, you know what I mean? It’s like the Hawaiians Buddhism or something.

Joe Vitale: There you go. Yeah, it is something like that. Well there was a Kahuna who created it and she was said to be enlightened and Morna is her name, and she’s considered to be a national treasure in Hawaii, much like Buddha or somebody else might be in another culture. So similarities are accurate.

Susan Bratton: That kind of reminds me of the word you and Garf came up with, nevillizing.

Joe Vitale: Yes.

Susan Bratton: That’s a funny one too and I think it’s really similar. Do you want to tell us about – that’s one of your seven steps to attracting money is the…

Joe Vitale: Yeah.

Susan Bratton: nevillize your goals, and I love David Garfinkel.

Joe Vitale: Yeah.

Susan Bratton: He has a new product he’s working on called Fast Effective Copy.

Joe Vitale: Oh he’s a genius. I love David.

Susan Bratton: Me too.

Joe Vitale: And David’s one of, he came up with the word nevillize. That’s his coined word. I’ve been using it ever since he said it. Neville Goddard was a mystique in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s. He wrote a lot of books, he gave a lot of talks. Most people just refer to him as Neville and most of his books are still in print. I encourage people to read them. And basically he said to not just visualize what you want to experience, but to actually step in to the holographic image as it is already done within you, meaning you don’t just project it and step into it. This isn’t just visualization. This isn’t just mental imagery. It’s more of a holographic experience where you imagine that all your sales have increased or that you got the perfect relationship or you got that car you’ve always wanted or the house or your corporate headquarters or whatever it happens to be.

Instead of visualizing it in the distance, you visualize it as if it’s already happened right now. It’s over. You’re living it. And by nevellizing, which is the phrase we’re using to assume the feeling of the wish fulfilled, Neville used to sign books by saying that assume the feeling of the wish fulfilled, meaning that you have a desire, you have a wish, assume the feeling that it’s done, that you already are in it. And as you feel it you’re walking it into your unconscious and you also from a somewhat metaphysical standpoint are sending out a template for the universe to bring into being for you. And on one level I imagine some of the hardcore marketing people are going, “Oh my god, what is he talking about?” And the hardcore metaphysical people are going, “Oh yeah, right on.” Well I find that I’m living both and part of the reason I’ve been able to go from homeless, out of poverty, to where I’m at today is by nevillizing where I wanted to be. Now I’m there. So nevillizing is a very powerful process and you, again, can do that right now.

Susan Bratton: Joe some people just call that ‘as if.’

Joe Vitale: Yes, as if. They go and say, “As if.”

Susan Bratton: I just edited your copy. Here you go, “As if.”

Joe Vitale: You know here’s…

Susan Bratton: [Inaudible].

Joe Vitale: You know, I love it though ‘cause this is triggering a persuasion tip.

Susan Bratton: All right.

Joe Vitale: As much as people say they want to simplify things, they actually buy into concepts that are confusing. I could go and say, “Okay, let us talk about the principle of as if,” and maybe they’ll lean forward, maybe they’ll be interested, maybe they’ll buy whatever I’m talking about. But if I say, “Let me tell you about a new process called nevillize,” they don’t know what nevillize means. They’re going to give me a little bit of time to explain it, and if it starts to sound intriguing I’ve now got them and put them into my sales funnel. So lets not overlook that sometimes making things new and slightly confusing is hypnotic, whereas if you make it too simple they don’t get as interested.

Susan Bratton: Yeah, it discounts it easily. I know that. Yeah.

Joe Vitale: I know you know.

Susan Bratton: Especially guys. You dudes, what is it with you guys, you think you know it all. No, I’m kidding actually.

Joe Vitale: It’s because we do.

Susan Bratton: I know it is.

Joe Vitale: We think we do, yeah.

Susan Bratton: I know it is. I’m just being silly. So Joe, what do you really want right now? What do you want right now?

Joe Vitale: You know, that’s a funny question. At one point years ago I would’ve been telling you, “Well I want these new books to come out and be bestsellers” or “I want this particular car,” “I want this particular whatever.” I’m at the point where I’m entirely content with my life and everything that I have in it. What I want is to be happy in each moment. I actually suspects that’s what all of us want and we don’t know it because we keep mystifying each other by saying, “Well when I get the car I’ll be happy,” “I get the house, I’ll be happy,” “I get the big deal, I’ll be happy.” No, actually when you’re happy now everything else starts to come together and come into place. So what I want is to be happy now and to remain happy in each moment.

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